[“Octopus City” by Url]

This is a tune I’ve been listening to since last night by the digital music collective known as Kahvi. Albert, it’s release 201 by Url.

I haven’t listened to any underground stuff for a long time, but ever since Pat decided to create his own stuff with Fruity Loops and Reason, I have been considering to get back into tracking, but it takes so much creativity out of me. One of the reasons it was so natural for me back in the mid to late 90’s was because depression and anger fueled my desire to track.

Anyway, I wanted to enter this entry because I had a conversation with a female friend about falling in love with a guy who’s like the perfect prince to her, but she’s heartbroken because she also won’t allow herself to date him. So she called me to vent. I’m posting this up with her anonymity as well as the fact that it reminds me of another one of my female friends whom has had this problem as well. Honestly, I find it ridiculous and I didn’t agree to any one of her points. It was just frustrating for me to listen.

[sigh] Silly silly girl. I say, all you need to do is exile yourself in a place full of your ‘type’ of people. Maybe you’ll find that perfect prince again with the same religion as yours.

As all of you know, to me personally, I am against religious doctrine, but I do understand why it’s needed.

One of the major reasons why I admire and look up to Jonathan (Fong Pei) is because of his internal strength and togetherness. He’s calm, and doesn’t get angry nor does he panick. Only times I have ever seen him angry was on two occasions in last last 12 years I’ve known and have been friends/family with him. Since high school til now, his character hasn’t changed much, and I don’t see why he needs to be changed. From day one that I’ve met him to now, he’s as calm as ever, as collected and as stable in the mind as ever. In fact, if I am a weak person myself, I might even create a religion around him. [laughs] I’ll call it Jonathan and followers will be known as Jonathans. “Those Jonathans are wicked! Let’s convert!”

Joking aside, the friend who called me will be known as Muffin. So out of the blue, my cell rang and I picked up to hear the sobbing of Muffin. At first, I thought it was ‘you know who from my password protected’ who called me again about you know what. Alas, I was fortunate and it wasn’t. Immediately, I sighed and asked, “Is that you, Muffin?”

The last time I talked to her was at least 8 months ago or something like that. After waiting for her to sob it mostly out, she finally said something coherent. I tried in my limited power to try to cheer her up and eventually after an hour later, she told me what was going on. I listened and listened and listened and made occasional “mhm’s” along the way. Whenever she asked me “Do you know what I mean?”, I always answered, “Yes, yes I do.”

Afterwards, she thanked me and asked to see me. Alas, I declined and told her I needed to do my work which has been piling up on me forever. I also felt that she really didn’t need to see me. It was just her way of trying to thank me in person. So if you (Muffin) reads this, you don’t need to thank me. Just be glad I didn’t scold you on the spot. Though next time you ball your eyes out again, don’t hesitate to call and vent to me. 😉

Basically, this is what she told me – she met a guy a few months ago. They hit it off really well. The guy is well established, charming, sweet, considerate, sporty, masculine, family-oriented and reads the Art of War, and practices Aikido as a hobby. He’s a bit older than her, in his mid 30’s and lives on his own. He has a great family, lots of brothers and a younger sister whom they are very close. He’s supposedly a great cook, does a lot of charity work, and backpacks around China. She even said I would like him, and I’m sure as he reminds me a lot like Albert, Pat, and Jon. Yaddi, yadda, etc, etc, etc.

I have to admit, when she was telling me all that, I had the urge to say, “Just get to the point!” Alas, I was nice and considerate enough not to. Hehe… 😉

All these great comments as well as some particulars, she finally got to the damn point and said, “But I’m heartbroken Leeman! It’s driving me insane! I cry myself to sleep every night thinking about him. I go through work thinking about him! Everything I do from getting up, eating, and walking my dog, I am reminded of him!”

Please note that Muffin is an independent, well-educated young woman. She can take care of herself. So I was a bit surprised to have heard that from her.

I asked after her rant, “Ah I see… Let me guess, you’re not together with him for a reason that exceeds all reasoning?”

She said, “My parents don’t agree to it! My friends tell me that I can do better! BUT I CAN’T! HE IS THE BEST and I have never met anyone like him nor do I think I will ever meet anyone like that again!”

I listened more about her rants for a few minutes and I finally interrupted her, “I’m sorry Muffin, but I have a feeling that you’re trying to avoid the real subject here. So far, you’ve told me about him, how you feel about him, and how your family friends don’t agree with you about him. Ultimately and remember, this is about you and him and no one else. Please just get to the point, though I know you wish to tell me more about how perfectly missile shaped his cock is and his perfect smile can make any woman faint, etc.”

At least she laughed a bit to that last comment, then she finally said the “R” word. Can anyone guess what that “R” word is? [grins] That “R” word is “Religion”.

In her exact words, “We believe in different things. Our religion is different.”

I asked her, “Let me guess – he won’t convert right?”

That set off another bout of light sobbing, and we didn’t say anything for the longest time when she finally asked me, “What are you thinking about?”

I had a vague smirk on my face and asked, “What do you expect me to think?”

She answered, “I know you’re not big on religion, least of all with your experiences in Christianity, but I called you because I trust your opinion.”

I laughed and said, “Then trust me when I say that I am probably the worst person to go to if you’re coming to me about religion.” Alas, all she said after my comment was, “Please Leeman! Please tell me what your thoughts are!”

Coupled with excessive sighing, I told her my thoughts. In short, I said to her that religion and Christianity is her forte. Without it, she would be lost. I also told her that she shouldn’t stop believing in it nor should she compromise her beliefs for anyone or anything. Though mind you, I don’t actually believe in this. I said this to her because this is what she could only hear – I was sure of it. If I had told her otherwise, she wouldn’t actually have heard what I said.

I told her that though my personal beliefs are against religion as a whole, I understand why religion needs to exist in the world. You see, Muffin grew up in a Christian family since birth. When we first met and in the two years that followed after that, she has met three guys whom she dated but left her. With every passing relationship that failed, she turned to religion and poured her heart into it. In fact, I even remarked once to her, “You don’t need a man! Just marry Jesus!”

Near the end of our 2.5 hour conversation – or rather, her conversation, she asked me, “It hurts so much Leeman, to leave the one you love so much.”

I was hesitant but I finally replied, “Life is glorious, but whatever makes religion a religion really sucks that glory out of life. That guy is there, and he hasn’t even moved. You pressed that pain upon yourself and you’re leaving a perfect lover behind for something that has caused you vague happiness. Throughout the last three years we’ve talked and stuff, where has there been one instance you needed Christianity aside from getting hurt every time? Think about it Muffin. Internal strength is about yourself, in your heart. What gives us equanimity is not what religion can give us. What gives us equanimity is through internal will.”

She was quiet and she listened, and I ended my comment with, “To be faithful to God, you just have to believe in yourself and what your heart desires. To be faithful to God, you don’t need religion to dictate what you believe in. The decay to Life is the restrictive measures of religious doctrine. The growth of Life is the innate ability for oneself to grow with Life. The fact we weren’t born religious means it is unnatural for us to be attached to religious doctrine. I ask you Muffin – why do you go to Jo and myself for advice and opinion when you know well we are both not religious?”

Her first answer was, “I don’t know, because you’re my friends?”

I said, “If that is all we are to you, then there would have been no point in this conversation.”

She replied, “What do you mean?”

I said, “Think about it. People of ‘faith’ are often vague in their ideas of their religious doctrine. When they are not, it simply means they have learned-ego to back themselves up. Most religious people have their own interpretations of what their written doctrine means. Everything from masturbation to sex to violence and marriage. I’m sure you have your own ideas as well. However, if religion as a whole means the absolute truth, then why isn’t the religion as a whole unified? If it was really unified, you wouldn’t be crying every time someone or something broke your heart. You wouldn’t even have been in that situation in the first place. You can argue that God has a purpose for you, but if you don’t know what that purpose is and all you do is put faith into that unknown purpose, then for sure as human beings, we will develop our own interpretations of the religious doctrines.”

She listened and I continued, “You came to me after you tried for a few nights, praying for answers from your Christian god, still sobbing, still depressed. What happened to you Muffin?! You’re supposed to be strong! What happened to that sexy independent young woman who graduated with 4.0 GPA? Now you’re coming to Jo and myself for advice? What happened to your religion? It’s supposed to be the absolute truth and purpose. If you have that, you don’t need friends. In fact, you won’t need advice and opinion from Jo and myself.”

I stopped my rant after that and she eventually softly replied, “I think I need religion to help me live through life, but I love him so much. He’s like you and Jo, strong in the inside, calm all the time, funny, silly, and he’s so perfect!”

I laughed and said, “I’m far from perfect, but that’s the thing you see? You just said a key word there – “need”. People of faith should not NEED their religion. In my opinion, people of faith only need to know how to live and how to grow with Life. If not to benefit others, then at the very least, to benefit yourself. He sounds great, like my brothers. I would hate to see you tear yourself apart because of religious differences.”

With that said, our conversation ended with a bit of cheering up and silliness on my side and a bedtime story for her, then a good night. Mind you, all of the above is not exactly what I said on the phone, but close enough.

I decided to post up our conversation and my thoughts, because another of my female friends went through a similar dilemma. It frustrates me to no end how religion is the cause of most wars, most genocides, most violence, most prejudice, most heartbreaks, most of every other negative aspect of Life. People has asked me before, “How do you keep your focus Li?” I tell them that Life keeps me in focus. To me, the idea of God is what Heaven and Life is to me. Being faithful to God, means being faithful to Life. Thus, I am faithful to myself. My conscience is clear. I do what I do because I choose to do them and not what written doctrine tells us to.


I think the only time I have thought of converting to Christianity was because Julia is so damn delicious and she only goes for Christian guys. Hahahaha! Alas, that passing thought and my schlong at the upright position died very shortly after. 😉


PS: “The Muffin Game” is where a group of guys jerk off onto a muffin. The last guy to finish has to eat the muffin. Gross isn’t it?


Add yours
  1. 1

    I totally agree with your statement “Being faithful to God, means being faithful to Life. Thus, I am faithful to myself. “.I also don’t beleive in living my life by a set of rules interpreted by people many many years ago,most of them have left out vital history information to suit society,possibly to prevent anarchy.

  2. 3

    “Attractive” as in silly, or “attractive” as in retarded? I once had a girl say she was attracted to me because I was retarded. I tilted my head sideways and gave her a “WTF?” look…

  3. 5

    Well no. 8] It wasn’t a rejection mind you. It was more like a out of the blue thing. Eg: sitting at the bench out at night talking about random things and then BAM she says, “You know what Leeman? If I didn’t have a boyfriend, I would be very attracted to you in a retarded sort of way.”

    I think that was good cause for a “WTF?” expression on my face, don’t you agree?

    Ah well, whatever. I just came out of a 4 hour combination run of Upper Blackrock Spire and Molten Core Attunement in WoW. I have never played so much in one setting in one instance before. Gross. GROSS! Gotta go to bed now. Need to go to a client’s place early in the morning.

  4. 6

    i don’t understand how you can fall in love with someone who you don’t have the same “beliefs” as your’s…obviously they have similar beliefs….they’re just different in name only! So she just stopped seeing him eh? he must think she’s on crack! i know she’s your friend and all, but he’s better off without someone like her! what a retard!

  5. 7

    that’s too bad for your friend. i also used to think like her, but when i met my man, i knew that being christian no longer works for me. love is too sweet. like ariel, i can totally relate to what you said about “Being faithful to God, means being faithful to Life. Thus, I am faithful to myself.“ nowadays, i still believe in God. i know God is out there and i think that’s all it matters.

  6. 8

    Well it IS unfortunate. In the recent years, I’ve accepted four people into my closer bundle of friendships whom are Christians. One of which has been questioning Christianity as a religion and his faithfulness to God. Another whom is pretty hardcore into her religion, but really hard to not be frustrated with. A third whom I’ve ‘met’ through the net that is still Christian by concept, but has pretty much turned from hardcore doctrine to spiritual philosophy instead – which I have to applaud to Kari for turning a new leaf. She has indeed improved for the better. 😉

    The fourth being the girl whom I have talked about in this thread. It’s really too bad and I am very serious. With my religious friends, more often than not, I have to hold back what I want to say. Religious tolerance has grown extremely thin with me over the last half a decade. Honestly, it’s nice to see religious decay. To me, it gives me a huge sense of gratification.

    How so? I very much hate weak mentalities. People who follow religious doctrine through and through have often questioned their religion/faith, then after going to their pastor or their church and discussing it with their peers, they come back ‘stronger‘. Which is fine by idea. However, they only come back stronger because they get ‘reassurance’ from the collective. They, themselves aren’t strong people.

    For the rare few that are strong internally and are religious, they have what other religious people don’t – the ability to know themselves, be aware of their surroundings, and can argue against their own religion as well as defend it. However, the problem I see with people like that is that due to their pride and ego, they would often be blinded by that same pride and ego and not be able to process their own thoughts in favor of being objective. People like that have the potential to stand on their own and not use religion as their backbone. In fact, if they developed their own backbone, I might respect them so much more.

    Religion, especially Christianity has also been a thorn on my side. The bible’s ultimate meaning is the same as every other religious doctrine, yet fundamentalist Christians claim it to be the absolute truth. On top of that, the bible isn’t always clear which has caused many denominations to appear in the last thousand and so years, and even within a sole denomination, people still develop their own interpretations of what the bible is saying/teaching.


    The few close friends I have are Christians are good people as individuals. The things they do, do not represent Christianity for the most part, but in the times they do, I simply turn a blind eye. The only perfect relationships out there are those who include all the differences as well, even if those ‘minorities’ are overwhelmingly gross and questionable. A lot of people just don’t have anything else to fall back on aside from their religion.

    Like John Lennon’s words:

    Imagine there’s no Heaven
    It’s easy if you try
    No hell below us
    Above us only sky
    Imagine all the people
    Living for today

    Imagine there’s no countries
    It isn’t hard to do
    Nothing to kill or die for
    And no religion too
    Imagine all the people
    Living life in peace

    You may say that I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you’ll join us
    And the world will be as one

    Imagine no possessions
    I wonder if you can
    No need for greed or hunger
    A brotherhood of man
    Imagine all the people
    Sharing all the world

    You may say that I’m a dreamer
    But I’m not the only one
    I hope someday you’ll join us
    And the world will live as one

    Ever since I heard this song when I was really really young, I’ve had visions where the world can be united as one without all these terrible vices that tears us all apart. Alas, I am in the wrong ‘career’.

    Religion isn’t love. When people of religious values come together, that’s simply the comfortable feeling of people being together as one. It has nothing to do with religion. Religion is just a tool. People can still come together as one without religion. We just have to believe in ourselves, and work towards the benefit of everyone, including ourselves.

    You’re right Charlotte – love is too sweet. Hopefully, you won’t go back to religion if it breaks your heart. Building your insides first and expanding outwards is something I highly encourage. 8]

  7. 9

    Alright. I’m sorry for your friends dillima, but she needs to get her bloody nose out of the bible. Letting the perfect person for them vanish just because of religious beleifs is fucking stupid. I’m sorry Li, but I’m going to be completely blunt here, and this may cause hurt feelings with some people.

    She’s a fucking moron. Religion, in this case christianity, does NOT say that you can’t love and be loved by someone who is not of that faith. There are few religions like that in the world. Religions founding principle in almost any aspect is LOVE. And the stupid part is, if she wasn’t in love with this guy right now, she would realize what I’m saying is right. Religion is about love. It’s all based on love. Love thy neighbor, love thy spouse, love thy chidlderen and all that shit. Religion seems to forget about that one founding thing when it comes down to two things. War, and…….love. Ironic, no? They preach and preach and preach obout loving their fellow man, but when it comes to actual love, between two people, it’s just blown out the fucking window due to narrow-minded stupidity.

    Sorry, but I’m aithiest. I don’t beleive in god, in any way or form. Oh, and I also don’t beleive in athism as a religion either, even though that is what they’ve classified it as. My ex, who I have a child with, is Catholic. My current interest is also catholic, I beleive. Think she was baptized, can’t remember. They love/d me for who I am, not for my beleifs. I think anyone who allows beleif in something as corrupt and juvinile as religion, to affect their happiness, is a complete and utter moron, and should just not bother with even trying to find love, since they’ll just waste away all their best chances.


  8. 10

    [sigh] In short, oh yeah… AND do not worry for the apologies. This board is all about getting the thoughts out, and it’s great to have your’s here for sure. It won’t wake most religious people up unfortunately, but it might make a small dent in their idea of ‘faith’.

  9. 11
    Fong Pei

    some of you (i.e. Samurai) are definitely being way too harsh on muffin….in no way, shape, or form, is she a moron or an idiot or whatever adjective may cross your mind.

    she is merely confused right now as she is torn between two things that are really important in her life….which one is more important? well, that’s just a matter of opinion and personal preference. Most would say “her man, silly people!” Well, there are lots of people out there that view religion as the most important aspect of their life and there’s nothing wrong with that. Its their choice and you can’t judge it as wrong or “moronic”. They may be so dedicated that what they want is a mate who shares the same spiritual/religious beliefs so that they may grow and bond together in that aspect. For some, that may be more important than a physical or emotional attachment. She may be just sad that she knows she can’t be with him, even though he is great in every other aspect except the most important one for her.

    I’m not saying I agree with her course of action, but it is way too harsh to call her a “fucking moron”. We are not as religious as muffin so its hard to see her point of view…..but I’m sure there are principles/beliefs that you have that you would not be willing to easily compromise for love.

  10. 12

    I agree with Jon up to a point. “Fucking moron” may be too harsh on the person, but I wouldn’t say that religion isn’t “fucking moronic”. The thing that pisses me off the most is that although there are many different interpretations and many different denominations of one religion, those same people have the tenacity to say it’s the absolute one and denounce all other faiths as fakes. Then those same people would do things that do not reflect the bible at all. In fact, they have the courage to say and feel that their faith is the absolute truth, yet they do things that are completely opposite of that ‘truth’. That’s why though I understand human nature, I will never accept that religious people can stick with one religion/belief and never see pass all the hypocrisy of their faith.

    Eg: Muffin says she is faithful to her god, but she desires her man to be Christian. HOW DOES THAT WORK?!?! God and Christianity are two different things. Yet Christians would think otherwise and say they are one and the same which I highly disagree with.

    EXACTLY WHAT IS THEIR BELIEF?!?! Like Sushi Samurai had pointed out: WHAT IS THEIR IDEAL that makes their beliefs different from everyone else’s? I mean this point frustrates the fucktards out of me. Honestly, I hope Christianity dies out in my lifetime. I’m not saying people should die. I’m saying that those fundamental religions should be wipe off the face of our planet.

    Religious people can argue that their religious leaders do not represent them, considering that now thousands of religious leaders have been investigated to have been abusers, molestors, rapists, and such. However, I beg to differ. If these individuals never knew that their leaders were doing all these bad things for as long as they live, they would have always believed that these preachers, pastors, and other religious leaders to have been the word of god all this time.

    So with all that said, when people like Muffin say that her beliefs do not match up with her lover’s, I seriously shake my head and sigh until my lungs can sigh no more, because I just simply cannnot stand for such hypocrisy.

    IF YOU ARE TRULY Christian this is what you HAVE TO FOLLOW in an intimate relationship:

    1) NO SEX before marriage and that includes ALL FORMS of sexual activity with your partner

    2) NO DIVORCE after you get married, unless one of the partners performs an act of cheating

    3) AFTER DIVORCE YOU MAY NOT REMARRY as this is considered a sin if you express your love towards another man – it IS considered cheating

    The way that the bible has been written dictates absolutely NO condolences to flexibility and change and least of all, not one expression towards humanity. IF the bible was indeed the law, then every single individual in this world should be mindless and partake in a society where an individual should never have personality or character. THE FACT that we all dress differently and adhere to the personalized tastes of what we deem as beautiful and attractive STATES that the bible is missing at least ONE VERY KEY ASPECT OF LIFE. THAT KEY ASPECT would no doubtly be that by natural causes, people are NOT GENERIC as the BIBLE DICTATES. If we were all generic, then surely whatever the Bible says will be absolute, BUT BECAUSE WE ARE ALL dynamic in thought, in tastes, emotions, needs, wants, etc, etc, etc, we as natural human beings CANNOT follow the bible or ANY RELIGIOUS doctrine that dictates that we should be this and that.

    We are all born free to choose. FREEDOM is the key word here. RELIGION is NOT faith. RELIGION is prison. FAITH is a completely and utterly different aspect of Life.

    IF MUFFIN was truly and utterly infatuated with Chrisianity, then the least she could do is renounce EVERY ASPECT OF HER LIFE – eg:

    1) As a Christian, their god is absolute and has a purpose for all of them, thus the study of higher education is NOT needed. Trust is an aspect that Christians should adhere to in their beliefs/god.

    2) As a Christian, they need not be medical nurses, doctors, scientists BECAUSE it is the WILL OF THEIR BIBLICAL GOD to dish out pain and torment and disease in this world. IT IS THE WILL OF THEIR BIBLICAL GOD to allow people to molest, rape, and abuse. THEY CAN ARGUE THAT IS THE DEVIL’S WORK, but for fuck sakes, the DEVIL IS A CREATION of GOD. THUS THEIR CHRISTIAN GOD ALLOWS the Devil to do his/her/its work on the human population.

    3) In fact, as a Christian, why do people need to do anything in the first place? Why don’t they all just huddle around a fire, naked as they were born, and chant gospels in the name of their lord and savior? I’m sure that is the most fitting way to be a Christian, to freeze and die out in Canadian below zero temperatures. IN FACT, that would be the will of God.

    Remember, Christians as with other hardcore religions, DO NOT HAVE A WILL OF THEMSELVES. THEIR WILL is controlled BY their GOD. END OF STORY. Everything else is a sin.

    THAT IS WHY IT PISSES ME OFF when people like Muffin do this and that, and say this and that, yet that’s all they do! RARELY have I seen a Christian do things that reflect their doctrine. The only times I’ve seen that happen are with the Amish.

    Muffin may not be a fucking moron, but the things she does are definitely fucking moronic.

  11. 13
    Fong Pei

    Li, you’re starting to get annoyed again 😉

    while you know we see eye to eye on many things, there are 2 different arguments here….one is a) her choice to not be with her man b/c he’s not christian and b) the validity of Christianity.

    I don’t know all that was said in your conversation but from what you’ve written….it feels like she couldn’t be with him b/c she wanted a Christian man….she wants a guy her family and friends approve of. She never said she had to be with a Christian man b/c her religion told her to….Christianity, family & friend approval are criteria she has set out for herself and he has not met them, albeit being perfect in every other way. To some, those “criteria” are important….moronic? I don’t really see how that’s any more moronic than guys who go for physical beauty only, or people who stick to their race only, or etc etc….its just vital criteria that she has set out, a lot like all of us have vital criteria our significant others have to meet. A lot of this criteria may not make sense to others but in the end, that’s what we want and you can’t argue with it.

    the 2nd argument, which is what you have been referring to isn’t really the issue at hand here. I know you are frustrated with religious issues and it always seems to come up but most of this seems to be your venting….not hers. Like you said, she’s human so she’ll never be able to follow her christian beliefs to a “T” but we have all been hypocrites and have done things that have not always followed our own beliefs.

    But my interpretation of this blog and some of the comments afterwards, i thought we were arguing the merit of her decision to not be with her guy because he wasn’t christian and her family and friends didn’t approve of him. The argument of the validity of Christianity as a religion, isn’t really on trial this time.

  12. 14

    Yes but we are hyprocrites not by saying that what we believe in are the absolute truth. We are hyprocrites not because we follow something blindly and say it’s the ultimate purpose, then go back on everything that we represent as human beings. We are hypocrites because we have flexible minds that can change with mood, desire, and tidbit influences. Religous people are hyprocrites because they solely believe in their absolutel truth and say it IS THE ABSOLUTE truth, then do something that doesn’t represent that absolute truth.

    As for the two different arguments – it’s true there are two distinct arguments here, but the fact of the matter is ideal. You said that it wasn’t the religion that dictated that she choose a Christian man right? Well let’s go to the Bible shall we?

    The bible clearly states that marrying a nonbeliever is to be avoided:

    2Corinthians 6:14: “Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?”

    In fact, I’m surprised that Muffin is friends with non Christians. Considering that two of her closest friends are non-Christians. If Muffin was a generic person without a mind of her own, then fine, I’ll take back all that I’ve said and say that all Christians are NOT human and they are a race of their own of mindless hive beings. However, since Muffin IS human and DOES not belong to a hive-mind per se, then I will continue to have this sort of irritance. Especially when she cries her eyes out, sobs her heart until it becomes shrivelled, and asks me questions that THE BIBLE SHOULD HAVE HAVE ANSWERED in the first place, I no doubtly will get quite angry that religion like that exists in this world still.

    Right now, the thing is that Christianity may not be the main topic, but because Muffin has coincided her beliefs upon her partner to be Christian, the validity of the religion itself is now into place.

    For example, if you are a warlord in Africa and your belief is to unite all the tribes as one and kill of those that do not agree, then your lover who does not believe that killing them off is the answer, and will not choose to be with you for those reasons, then wouldn’t you think that is JUST cause for not being with you?

    However, if you are a warlord in Africa, and your beliefs are still the same, and your lover’s basic ideals are the same or similar to yours, but the only reason why she chose to NOT be with you was because you are of the Hutu Tribe and she is of the Lulu Tribe – isn’t that just simply saying that she rather cause havoc and war than to join with you and wipe out the segration of the tribes people and unify under one name instead?

    Religion is the SOLE REASON why she chose otherwise. Validity of religion will come into play once she uses religion as her SOLE purpose that reflec the way she chooses her partners.

    Think about it this way – if there are 1000 men in this world, 999 of them are Christians, but they are totally incompatible with Muffin. Yet that 1 non-Christian is as perfect as a desireable man can ever be for Muffin, then she chooses to go for one of the 999 rather than the 1 perfect man, wouldn’t that just say that she is fucking moronic?

    And though our views on humanity being ‘not-perfect’ per se is similar, the way that the Bible makes it to be is that humans HAVE to be perfect, or they will all go to hell. THAT IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH. BECAUSE we are simply humans and we have emotions, moods, needs, wants, and all the other things that make us as individuals, that means that is IMPOSSIBLE to follow the BIBLE as it dictates. EITHER YOU FOLLOW THE BIBLE 100% or you go to hell.


    Validity of religion in this entry, goes hand in hand with the validity of Muffin’s ‘ideals’ to have a Christian man in her intimate life. HOW VALID is Muffin’s ideals on having that Christian man when she herself does not follow the Bible 100%? Think about it. Just as how valid is any fundamental religion that try to put a cage around their followers.

  13. 15

    And damn it, I’m getting worked up on this crap! I told myself last year that NO MORE RELIGIOUS BATTLES! I’m not battling here, but I am merely venting my frustrations over the last 2 and a half years that I’ve been keeping in. IT JUST DOESN’T WARRANT ANY SENSE FOR ANYONE WHO HAS ANY SENSE!

    You are calm in this state, as I am most of the time, but being faithful to Life, I just hate seeing and witnessing all this disgusting religious restriction on people! WHEN OBVIOUSLY it is NOT WORKING! RELIGOUS people make it work through force of mental demand. That is all. They will start to feel things as their inner voice dictates by the representative of their god and almighty being of sorts. AS HUMANS WE SHOULD UNIFY AS ONE, so we can make progress as one. YET THERE IS RELIGION THAT DICTATE OTHERWISE.

  14. 16
    Fong Pei

    you see, the thing is, you are judging muffin’s beliefs based on your image of christians in general …. based on all of your frustrations of all the christians you have encountered in your life and bundled into a raging ball. that’s not really fair for muffin. As you know, Christians knowledge of Christianity varies very greatly from person to person. But that doesn’t mean their faith is any less. The entire religion is based on faith…so as long as she believes in God, then she is as a devote christian as any other….but she may not have nearly as much knowledge on the religion itself. That works for some people….not everyone has to research it in super depth to believe…..some believe easier because they want to believe and while you may not agree with that, that’s how some humans are…its not just christians who suffer this.

    now, that being said, the Corinthians verse you quoted above, how sure are you that she is aware of this verse? You found it because you are the type of person to research, but is she? From what you have described, it doesn’t sound like she does….so you can’t say that this is not a personal choice to have a christian mate. Humans have always felt more comfortable with familiar things….so for her, this is what it is. You may want an asian mate because she understands you and your family’s culture and beliefs….same idea. All I’m saying is that unless she says she’s choosing a christian mate based solely on what the bible has stated, the argument of the validity of christianity is not relevant and this is merely a personal choice.

    “Think about it this way – if there are 1000 men in this world, 999 of them are Christians, but they are totally incompatible with Muffin. Yet that 1 non-Christian is as perfect as a desireable man can ever be for Muffin, then she chooses to go for one of the 999 rather than the 1 perfect man, wouldn’t that just say that she is fucking moronic?”

    do you think she would go for a guy JUST because he’s christian?! no, she won’t….it has to be the total package. If she meets a christian male who constantly picks his nose and eats his boogers, she won’t go for him….because he hasn’t met her criteria of not being a disgusting pig. Now, it goes the other way as well, he can be a great guy but if she wants a christian guy, he doesn’t have the total package and while it hurts, she knows she has to move on. Based on her comments, she has already made her decision and just needs friendly support. If the case above were true and the 999 christian males weren’t suitable for her, I’m sure she’d remain single until she found the one.

    as for your arguments about Christians taking their religion as absolute truth, is that really her PERSONAL views or is that a vent at the religion itself and some of its hardcore followers? Has she ever had the “Holier-than-thou” attitude towards non-christians? I don’t think she did if her best friends are non-christians….or else would they be her best friends if she looked down on them? So that argument about her being a bigger hypocrite than us isn’t valid either….her hypocracy is equal to all of ours….

    I just feel everyone is judging her too harshly and unfairly….just because the answer seems obvious to us and we can’t truly appreciate her view.

  15. 17

    First and foremost, as a Christian, isn’t it the DUTY of her pastor and her parents whom are probably christians as well, AND her peers that go to church with her SUPPOSED TO TEACH HER THAT?!?! I mean, it’s the basic concept of the bible – NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE of any kind, and DO NOT MARRY A NON-BELIEVER. I mean, that’s like saying to a policeman – “Did you know that you’re not supposed to let that bank robber go?” or “Did you know that you’re supposed to enforce the law?”

    Yeah, like it’s not obvious enough! Man, Muffin… Truly the muffin game!

  16. 18
    Fong Pei

    well, being brought up by my mom who was roman catholic, I had no idea such a verse existed until tonight….never knew a christian should not marry a non-christian.

    there is so much to christianity that its impossible for her to know even half of what is mentioned in the bible at her age, unless she was uber-keen on bible studies.

  17. 19

    Exactly what I mean. You said it yourself, “there is so much to christianity that its impossible for her to know even half of what is mentioned in the bible”. Shouldn’t Christians get to know what their doctrine teaches before they venture out into the world? With this said, and in other words, the bible teaches its followers to believe in the bible, to not sway from god (which by the way, is not represented in Christianity IMO), and to not do this and that, etc, etc, so wouldn’t it be prudent for the followers of Christ to NOT move into the world UNTIL they have fully comprehended THE BASIC IDEALS OF THEIR FAITH in the first place?


    Considering that you’ve mentioned the BASIC IDEALS of a Christian person a few comments up, I would just like to point out that if the MOST BASIC IDEALS of Christianity isn’t even known to its most BASIC level, then how the hell does Muffin or anyone like her expect to find equanimity in such ‘values’? You mentioned BASIC IDEALS – and there you have it and like I asked before…


    Exactly. She doesn’t even know. Now does she? Especially the whole NO SEX before marriage thing. Tsk tsk… Even if she did, she would have well avoided that man altogether in the first place. Yet she did not.

  18. 20

    First and foremost, to Fong Pei, “How DO you do it? How??”

    Now, as a Christian myself who has gone through this, here are my two humble cents.

    I agree whole-heartedly with much of what Fong Pei has already articulated. Muffin has to dig deep within the pits of her soul and examine what is most important to her. She is torn between two “loves” and must decide which precides the other. What kind of a role does Christianity play in her life? If it is one that pervades every aspect of her life, then it would be difficult to connect on the same plane with her man. If it was casual, and she adopted its core principals and values, I’m sure he has similar values that attract her to him in the first place. Secondly, how old is she? If she was young, say early 20s, then she may choose to wait it out with the faith that “the one” may come along. However, I’m sure that if she were 35, this option isn’t too appealing. And even in her waiting period, her views on this may change anyway. Time has a way of opening one’s eyes.

    When Li talked about religion as a prison, I’d have to say, that’s quite accurate. When faith gets reduced down to mere laws and a list of do’s and don’ts, then the spirit of the law, or the underlying philosophical implications are lost. The Pharisees were a very religious Jewish sect who were obsessed with keeping the law of Moses strictly, (lists of do’s and don’ts’ beyond the 10 commandments) that they lost the intentions of those laws to begin with. Interestingly enough, “pharisee” is also synonomous with “one who practises hypocrisy”. They even clashed with Jesus. Example: (from Matthew 12:9-13) According to the law of Moses, it was unlawful to do any form of work on the Sabbath Day, a day of utter and complete rest. A man with a shriveled hand came to Jesus for healing but the Pharisees accused Jesus of working (healing) on the Sabbath. Jesus shot back with, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Then he healed the man, while the Pharisees plotted to kill him. Now, having said all that, let’s analyze the Corinthians quote on being yoked. *hyuk hyuk*

    A yoke is a curved wooden bar that fits across the necks of 2 animals used to pull a plow or wagon. Yoke together a short, speedy calf with a tall, sluggish ox, it’d be difficult for the farmer to plow a straight furrow in his field. The concern behind this is in the negative effects of one on the other. If somehow, the calf was given high heels and a tranquiliser or the ox given caffeine, or a combo of the 2, it just might work!

    If her guy were supportive of her and her beliefs, would that interfere with her personal relationship with God? The Bible clearly cautions against relationships that may “put out” your faith in God. It does not explicitly state, “Thou shalt marry un unbeliever,” Further, challenging one’s faith is never a bad thing. Having friends that aren’t believers is not condemned either, otherwise we’d live in a silly bubble of our own little world! It is important though, that one is able to grow spiritually through one’s own circle of friends, fellowships, church etc.

    So in short, it is ideal to be paired with someone who shared the same faith. However, practicality creeps in at one stage or another. It is not even guaranteed that a union of 2 with the same faith would be most compatible either.

    Now closing with a story, I have a cousin whom has never seriously dated. Finally, she meets the man of her dreams, and they’re celebrating 9 or 10 months soon. She’s concerned for the very same reason as Muffin. A few years ago, I probably wouldn’t have said this, but I encouraged her not to give him up because of that. As long as he gives her the freedom to worship, to have her faith etc, she should still be able to carry on as if he were a believer.

    ps what exactly are ‘fucktards’?

  19. 21

    It’s a type of weener. Would you like to try some? 😉

    And with that said, can we close this debate now? I was debating and debating and debating, waiting for Spongey to come on here to balance the damn thing out, and now that you’ve done it – awesome. I can go back to mbing with both hands.

    I love playing the ‘devil’. I should make a game out of it. No, actually, I should make a comic out of it! That’ll be an idea!

  20. 22
    Capt. Tabbyman

    Nah.. let’s just make a movie. I personally think this is a healthy debate and I felt really compelled to read all of the comments. It’s one of those questions that I myself have been questioning but have never asked. We’re all individuals and I strongly feel everyone has their own spiritual path to walk upon. I hope one day, I’ll be able to seek where ever my spirit guides me.

  21. 23

    You sound like a Druid in World of Warcraft or a Shaman in Zelda… 8]

    And holy crap! WTH?!? You’re awake! I’m going to bed now… Zzz…

  22. 24
    Fong Pei

    Li, of course it would be ideal if all christians knew each and every ideal and teaching of Christianity. However, in reality, its far from ideal and religion, much like everything else like science, engineering, computer programming, etc, is a learn-as-you-go process. It happens to me all the time, when I’m working on a project and I’ve forgotten the most fundamental of ideas from my early engineering classes! This is the material is which all the advanced methods I currently used is based on, does this make me less of an engineer now? is my work compromised? As much as you want to say “YES! YES! HARDER!”, it hasn’t.

    She is still young and has lots to learn and she is learning as she goes. This is a life-long process so you can not be too critical of her faith. Its a lot easier to attack than to defend.

    Spongey: I do my best to keep Li in-line…or else he would run rampant around the world and poison everyone with his gas! 😉

  23. 25

    Mmmm!! Are they like European weiners? I love them all crunchy and stuff!! Just need to lather it in mayo and ketchup and I’m good to go!!! :p

    D’oh!!! I just realized instead of “Thou shalt marry un unbeliever”, I meant to write “Thou shalt not marry an unbeliever”. >

  24. 26

    And it got cut off again! :p Had more to post:

    ps Fong Pei, it’s not an easy job but I’m sure you’re the best one to do it! You guys could have your own gas wars!! 😉

  25. 27

    This is what happen when I have to work. I miss out when someone addresses me, in a matter of speaking.

    And I still hold true with my thought that she is a moron. She lets one thing, which has been proven over and over again to be one of the stupidest ideas in history. See: Religion. corrupt her mind and heart. They preach love, yet act unlovingly.

    No where does it say you can’t or shouldn’t marry someone of a different faith. As Li pointed out, it only cautions against it, because such a union might hinder ones faith. Well if they are faithful at all, and the person they marry loves them at all, then no such stress shall be present. Or it shouldn’t be at least.

    Sorry, but there are sometimes when a person has to put down the bible, and actually live for themselves, and not a book written by the biggest group of liars in the history of man.

    Sorry if that offends you christians, See: Spongey, but that is just how I, as a free willed human being, feel.

  26. 28

    You can always attach the bible to a stick and whack people around with them. I think someone hid his nudy pics of his gf in his cousin’s bible before. 8]

  27. 30

    Samurai: None taken. As humans with free wills, we’re allowed to exercise our freedom of expression as well as freedom of religion.

  28. 31

    Awesome! We are all one big happy group of Li’s friends. xD

    We need a Muslim here to give us their take on this. That would be neat.

  29. 32

    No more! I think if we have an all-out religious battle here, it would kill my bandwidth. Did you know according to my site stats, the highest amount of traffic EVER was in the days this debate was being discussed?!?! I had almost 200 unique hits per day and about 500 to 700 repeat visitors each day in those days!

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